August 28th, 2007 -- Written by John Campea
This past weekend I was at the 2007 Toronto Fan Expo, and one of the highlights of the event was taking in a screening of the new horror/slasher film “Hatchet” which is getting some critical praise at the moment. Right off the top I should tell you that I really enjoyed watching the film, it was a fun experience. But later upon reflection, I realized it really is a terrible movie. And yet I liked it.
We’ve all had those movies… many of us have at least one or two of those movies every month. Movies that are admittedly horrible, poorly done films that somehow achieve what they were aiming for and we end up having a positive experience at the theaters.
Let’s look at Hatchet for a second just as an example. The movie is a standard 80’s style slasher film. The acting is abysmal, the dialog is poor, the story itself is paper thin with no real horror mythology depth… it’s just sort of “Hey everyone! This is what the movie is about… oooooo… look… here comes that guy I just told you about with an axe and he’s going to start killing us all. AAHHHHH!!!”
And really… that’s all the movie is. Some funny one liners, and a progression of scenes where an insane axe murderer kills people. Not exactly hard cinema to make… and yet… I loved watching it. It was fun… totally forgettable for sure… but fun nonetheless.
Doug and I have this ongoing debate. He thinks a movie should be judged on what it was TRYING to do. To me this makes no sense, since by that logic, if a director is TRYING to make a bad movie, and achieves that…. then you’re supposed to say he did a great job. But at the same time there is some validity to what Doug (and others) are saying. When a movie like Hatchet just sets out to give you some laughs and cheesy slasher kills, and gives you just that… can’t you sit back and say, despite the obvious flaws and weaknesses, can’t you sit back and say you appreciated the film for what it was and what it gave you?
Personally, I’ve yet to give or hear a solid definition for what makes a bad film good… but I do know there are a lot of them out there. Movies that are “bad” by some of the traditional measurements like script, acting, plot ect… and yet end up being quite enjoyable. Here are some notable ones for me:
- Mortal Kombat (man… sooooo bad… yet I loved it)
- Armageddon
- Megaforce
- Baseketball
- Red Dawn
- Point Break
- Bloodsport
- Leprechaun
But you get my point. It’s a tough thing to nail down. So I’ve got 2 questions for you:
1) What common elements have you recognized that can make a bad movie really good?
2) What are some of YOUR films that you’d classify as bad… yet you loved them?
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I think if a movie is able to make a few references to other films, or is able to poke SOME fun at itself, it does gain a few more points from me. It doesn’t make the movie GOOD, but it does make it a tiny bit BETTER.
Bad movies I enjoy?
Rock Star
Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn
Battlefield Baseball (It took my a couple of weeks to figure out that I enjoyed its “unique” camp)
VERSUS
Screamers (CANCON)
For some reason or another, BIO-DOME was one of those movies for me. The movie was such schlock starring Pauly Shore, Stephen Baldwin and Kylie Minogue but there is a certain soft spot in my heart for this film. Go figure?!?
Nothing beats the Camp-Badness that were:
BARBARELLA & FLASH GORDON
Love both of these movies to death.
Mystery Science Theater 3000 is the best way for bad movies to become good.
I am a fan of a fair few bad films and the common thread seems to be, either i love the source material and certain little things about the movie (which is why i’ll buy Spider-man 3 on DVD), or it’s so bad, it’s hilarious and thus, very entertaining, especially if watching with a group of people.
The only two crimes which i will not forgive a bad movie of are:
a) If it tries to be funny and fails totally.
b) It’s just way too stupid on purpose and thinks it can get away with it.
c) It’s completely and utterly boring.
For example, i am a big fan of Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (i actually think it’s better than the third). I’m a huge Superman movie fan, the actors are really trying, the story is actually a very interesting one (handled poorly), and the special effects are so bad it’s hilarious. Plus, it’s such a short film that it never gets boring (least not for me). On the other hand, i can’t watch Batman & Robin because, on top of it’s other problems, it’s just boring as hell.
Bottom line, if a film entertains YOU, then let it wrap you up in it’s blanket of goodness, and to hell with what other people think.
As a wise man called Doug Nagy once said; “what is good?”
good choices. You named 2 of my favs. Mortal kombat, and Red Dawn. Red dawns premise is absolutly ridiculous, but It’s fun as hell.
Well, let me try a couple.
1. Fast and furious Tokyo drift: Sorry people, but I actually liked this.
2. Mall rats: Snoochie boochie bitches.
3. Knockaround guys: You must see this.
4. Mean guns: the original Battle Royal in my opinion.
5. Johnny menonic: Very original interesting premise, check it out.
Rocky Horror, Shock Treatment, Dude Where’s My Car?, The burbs’, Killer Klowns from Outer Space, Bio-Dome, Drop Dead Fred, Weird Science…are a few that come to my mind. I find myself watching them over and over again.
For me, what makes a bad movie good it just how fun it is! I think about Rocky Horror Picture Show and just how poorly the film was put together. And yet I enjoy the music, the color, the audacity of the situations the characters find themselves in, and of course Tim Curry as Frank-N-Furter. Originality is what people seem to enjoy, be it a shitty film or not.
And talk about a huge-ass cult following! Rocky Horror is still playing in theaters for cryin out loud! I think the oddball characters in oddball situations is what makes these types of film enjoyable.
If a movie can make YOU laugh, and amaze YOU, and just give YOU a good time…it doesn’t matter what other people think, and thats the key element; as long as YOU like it.
Laserblast
I have the #1 of the GI Joe comic book, and there is an ad for Megaforce LOL. Never did see that movie.
I hate to admit this, but every once in a long while I close the windows and lock the doors and I will watch The Phantom Menace. And, as much as I hate the movie and renounce it every fiber of my being, it’s so painfully bad that I enjoy it.
Hmmm…I know a lot of these…but the topper has to be Krull.
2. Adventures of Ford Fairlane
3. Police Academy
4. Labyrinth
5. Rad
6. 9 to 5
7. Fandango
8. Shaun of the Dead
9. Exorcist 3
10. The Toy
Anything made by Golan-Globus in the 80’s was very, very, VERY bad. These included films with Chuck Norris (Missing in Action), Jean-Claude Van Damme, and other movies like Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, Cobra, Death Wish II, The Delta Force, Invasion U.S.A., King Solomon’s Mines, American Ninja, and Lifeforce. The only reason I saw some of these was because I was working at the theater where they were shown and were free.
BTW, Red Dawn is my favorite guilty pleasure ;)
I’ve gotten to a point where making value judgments such as “good” and “bad” has very little meaning. It’s always completely subjective, and most films contain a fair amount of both likable and less likable ingredients. We can argue, as you have, that if a film fulfills its ambitions, then it is successful. But were those ambitions worthwhile in the first place? We can argue that if a film entertains, it’s successful, but is what “tastes good” always good for you?
I certainly have more appreciation for a failed crime of passion (Ed Wood’s films anyone?) than for the product of corporate cynicism (insert recent horror remake). My video shelf is home to both Raimi and Welles, even though I don’t rate their value as cinema equally. I can appreciate each one’s unique qualities, and am aware of many of their weaknesses. Flawed films can have more to offer than so-called “good” films to the viewer willing to suspend judgment long enough to see their value.
POINT BREAK….So bad, it’s good…..How dare you. This film represents the pinnacle of film making. Gathering a All-Star cast(The guy who played NEO, The Roadhouse bouncer and Tank Girl), Director Kathryn Bigelow has sculpted a modern masterpiece about the reason we live and die. My life will never be the same. I get chocked up just thinking about the ending.BOOOOODDDDDDHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
POINT BREAK….So bad, it’s good…..How dare you. This film represents the pinnacle of film making. Gathering a All-Star cast(The guy who played NEO, The Roadhouse bouncer and Tank Girl), Director Kathryn Bigelow has sculpted a modern masterpiece about the reason we live and die. My life will never be the same. I get chocked up just thinking about the ending.BOOOOODDDDDDHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
the qriginal the fog a couple lines always crack me up Theirs no fog out there Theirs no fog out there hey theirs a fog out their not funny writen but funny as hell when said in that movie
sorry ment original not qriginal one too many bongs
Ummm: Roadhouse. Krull. The Beastmaster. Repoman (not totally fair). Dead-Alive. Meet the Feebles. Deathrace 2000. Deep Blue Sea.
Deathrace 2000
Ice Pirates
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And I know most of you haven’t seen this one: The Bed Sitting Room (1969)
.
A virus that changes people into furniture. Yep. I shit you not.
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I think Phantom Menace is better than AOTC, so help me. Clones is just deadly dull for the first 90 minutes (however fun the last 30 are).
Steel starring the Shaq; that’s another one i like. It has a lot of heart……..and cheese.
@Gio: I have to agree with what’s being said about Point Break. That wasn’t a ‘bad it is god’ pic, it was a good it was overlooked pic that has gotten the respect it deserves.
Can I nominate John Carpenter’s “They Live” or “Big Trouble In Little China” in its stead?
Also, What in the hell is Armegeddon doing there? That was torture.
@Terry Letourneau, you said “anything”. Give the devil thier due: there was “Runaway Train” which was the exception. That said, Cannon has a nice roster of bad its good classics, such as Chuck Norris “Delta Force” and “Missing In Action” pix, to my personal fave, “American Ninja”. Also, “Bloodsport” has a good pace/energy to it…but I give a shout out to thier “Breakin” films as well.
Well, all films are subjective, so let me give you my deal, and you can rip me a new one.
In no ten disorder:
1) Battle Beyond The Stars.
2) Cannibal Humanoid Underground Dwellers aka C.H.U.D.
3) The Perfect Weapon
4) American Ninja
5) Blue Monkey
6) Stephen King’s Graveyard Shift
7) Return Of The Living Dead
8) CutThroat Island
9) Waterworld
10) Swamp Thing
other honorable mentions: The Pool, Pirhana, Devil’s Rejects and…Nemesis.
Oh yeah, forgot about 1980’s Flash Gordon…but I think I left that off because
1) Max Von Sydow was great as Ming.
2) Tim Dalton was good.
3) The new TV show makes it look like Sophocles ‘Antigone’.
That’s okay, I forgot Sorority Babes In The Slime Bowl O Rama too…and Creature…
ACTION JACKSON,baby! You gotta appreciate 80’s cheese!
It occured to me that I didn’t answer the first question. So I’ll give it a go. Lissen up:
Well, let’s pick from Gio’s list.
Bloodsport….Red Dawn and…Point Break.
For Bloodsport, I mentioned above the ‘pace’ and the ‘energy’ of the film. Yes, it has a slight novelty because it was one of Forest Whitaker’s early roles. But who/what made the film? Jean Claude Van Damme and the showing of MMA? Yes, that’s a factor. The Hong Kong locations? Possible. Bolo Young/Yang Sze flexing and referencing his earlier appearance in ‘Enter The Dragon’? Perhaps. It is all of those elements, plus, the chicks get the first of many moonshots from the Mussels from Brussels. But there is ONE character that stands out. Jackson, played by Donald Gibb. His character…is so likeable and so buddy like, I think it gave that film an extra boost. When Chong Li- a great martial arts villain, even playin’ dirty- takes him out, taunts Frank Dux (“I’ will break you, like I break your friend’ as he points to the bandana around his knee) and thus you have someone too cheer and someone to boo at.
Now ‘Red Dawn’.
A pre-Gorby flick with extreme prejuidce to say the least, the premise is interesting, as the Russkies drop in and shoot up unarmed teachers….a group of students escape. The plot is idiotic. But something…happens. The characters start coming through. I like the brother angle, how they hunt, drink Deer blood etc. But then two people show up: I forget the character names; so I’ll name the actors who gave THE BEST lines. One was Powers Boothe and the curiousity of Lea Thompson (a crush? a father figure? big brother?) and he’s given a heroic death. Then there’s another character actor, William Smith as one of the Russian generals.
So I’m going to sumbit this answer, Gio. Even in the bad films, maybe every now and then there is a sense of energetic pace and…even if the story is preposterous, there are standout characters and/or actors who can be real good enough to make the lines sound that much better.
I don’t why you think ‘Point Break’ is bad, but, to each his own. The action is standout, sure, but again, it comes down to the characters. An entertaining bad guy (I think I’m on to something here), a hot, perky love interest (still l-o-v-e Lori Petty’s blue eyes) and then…Gary Busey’s Papas. (“One Brick Coming Up!”)
Many here have said ‘Flash Gordon’- which didn’t take itself seriously. Again, an energetic pacing, and a few standout characters (notably Sydow).
When I see the common demonitor, it comes down to characters. They may not always be played by the best actors, it may not be helmed by the best director-but something pops out that makes you care to watch as dumb as dumb can be. Action and pace is a factor, but I think it comes down to character.
Good assessment, Int’ friends?
I always gotta agree with Megaforce. A friend and I caught that years ago after getting really stoned and we laughed during the entire movie. It has been treasured ever since. My own list would be:
1) Masters of the Universe
2) The Swarm
3) The Monster Squad
4) Tremors
5) No Retreat No Surrender
6) The Warriors
7) Enter the Dragon (that Motown remake)
8) Young Guns
9) Flight of the Navigator
10) No Holds Barred
I think what makes bad movies good for me is when they have actors really hamming it up on camera with terrible dialogue. The more effort they put they funnier it gets. No Retreat No Surrender was great at that. The acting was horrendous and had some of the most ridiculous lines ever but dammit I can watch it with a smile and laugh all the way through.
There are a number of things that make a bad movie good. If it’s just so bad that it’s fun to make fun of like Showgirls or something like that. I LOVE Showgirls just because of the pure trashiness of it. The Fifth Element is pretty stupid, but for some reason, I like watching it.
Another film I forgot to mention that the critics hated but I liked was The Postman with Kevin Costner…yes I said it, I LIKED ‘THE POSTMAN’. I even have here on dvd and going to watch it now :P
1. If the movie is just so lame that its funny then you definently have a good bad movie.
2. Street Fighter, Surf Ninjas
I can’t believe no one here has said COOL AS ICE yet.
That movie is so deliciously good because throughout the whole thing Vanilla Ice thinks he is SO uber cool, and he comes off as something that inspired a Jamie Kennedy skit character.
Drop the Zero and get with the Hero.
Sup sup!!
And I’ll add The Avengers remake onto this list. It’s shitty, but if it’s on TV, I’ll watch it, just for the AWFUL dialogue and ZERO chemistry between Uma Thurman and Ralph Fiennes. Drier than day old shit, I tell you.
Wow, an article about guilty pleasure movies. You know what would be great? You should compile a list called The Movie Blog’s Top 50 Guilty Pleasures and do a write up for each entry explaining why you chose it. You could also include signature moments from the films, what it’s missing, and why you have a personal connection to it. I, for one, will be looking forward to it.
What was “soooo bad” about ARMAGEDDON? JESUS! It was a fuckin GOOD movie! I can’t believe you guys sometimes. I mean, you get it right sooo much, but sometimes…. I don’t know what is going through your minds. I mean, I thought everybody loved that movie. hm?
holiday…..the burbs is nowhere near being so bad its good..it is good because its fucking great. there is nothing bad about it….
i definitely believe in films being so bad that they are good…
I do not believe at all in the concept of a ‘guilty pleasure” why the fuck feel guilty about liking anything….i definitely think doug has a point though….I definitely try to judge a film on what it is trying to do…i don;t know too many films that try to be bad john…
but a few so bad they become good films for me are
Rocky 4 and 5 are films for me that are so bad they are fucking awesome….when the russians all start cheering for rocky all of a sudden at the end of rocky 4…dear god that is tremendous….and the song “heart on fire strong desire”
metalstorm the destruction of jared syn…
spacehunter adventures in the forbidden zone….
showgirls….fuck i love that film
con air…I used to hate it but saw it recently and it is pretty much a laugh riot from beginning to end
face off….
troll 2
karate kid 3….as great as it is terrible and it is pretty terrible…even the fight at the end is lame…the way in which he wins is so lame it is inc redible….
pretty much everything brian de palma has ever done…except scarface and the untouchables which are just good….
some of my favorite films of all time for most people would fall into this camp….
flash gordon is in my top ten of all time….no irony….no mocking…i fucking love that film with all of my heart
KISS Meets the Phantom of the Park.
I haven’t seen it, but the theme song from “Nudist Colony of the Dead” is INCREDIBLE.
The Mummy, hands down.
Satans Little Helper-hilarious slasher flick from 2004, worth viewing for the blondes awesome cleavage!
Showgirls!
I think that the “when bad is good” criteria generally fits films that fall squarely into the “genre picture” category. That being said….
- Transformers - horrible acting (except Shia), terrible plot, great action
- Buckaroo Banzai - really a terrible, terrible movie… but man is it fun
- The Mummy saw it above, and can’t agree more. And like so many “bad is good” movies, a fabulous Jerry Goldsmith score. (Mummy Returns was just uninteresting garbage, FWIW)
A few more:
Born to Fight (recent flick has thai olympians fighting terrorists!)
Runaway (Tom Selleck, Gene Simmons and crazy metallic spiders)
Night of the Comet
Night of the Creeps
Terror Vision
Trancers 1-5
Robot Jox
Krull
The Beastmaster
Missing in Action
Dogs of War
Hell Comes to Frogtown
Tank Girl
The Sentinal
oi this list could go on forever.
(And to the fellah that said Armageddon was a good movie…Oi! What you smokin’?
Head starring The Monkees.